The preliminary hearing testimony of Fred Curiel
19 Mr. Jewett, are you ready with your next witness?
20 MR. JEWETT: Yes, your Honor. Fred Curiel.
21 THE COURT: As you get up to the witness stand here,
22 Mr. Curiel, if you can just remain standing for a moment and
23 raise your right hand, please.
24 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you
25 are about to give in the matter now pending before the Court
26 shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
27 so help you God?
28 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do.
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1 THE CLERK: Thank you. Please be seated. If you can
2 tell us your name, spelling your last name.
3 THE WITNESS: My name's Frederick Michael Curiel. Last
4 name is spelled C-u-r-i-e-l.
5 THE COURT: If you could just scoot up a little bit
6 closer to the mike, please, Mr. Curiel. Thank you.
7 FREDERICK CURIEL,
8 called as a witness on behalf of the People, was first duly
9 sworn, examined and testified as follows:
10 DIRECT EXAMINATION
11 BY MR. JEWETT:
12 Q. Mr. Curiel, where do you live?
13 A. I live at 1050 Hunsaker Canyon Road, Lafayette,
14 California.
15 Q. And who do you live there with?
16 A. My wife -- currently?
17 Q. Yes.
18 A. My wife, my three daughters and my brother.
19 Q. Who did you live there with in October of last
20 year?
21 A. My wife, my three daughters, Michael Sikkema,
22 Hazel McClure -- they're married -- and their two children, and
23 Scott Dyleski and Esther Fielding and my brother.
24 Q. Esther is Scott's mother?
25 A. Mother, yes.
26 Q. How long have you lived there at 1050?
27 A. I believe since January of -- I'm sorry. Lived
28 at 1050 Hunsaker?
360
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. Since 1998.
3 Q. Is that a new home there?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You build it?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. How long have you known Esther Fielding?
8 A. Since approximately 1993.
9 Q. And where did you meet her?
10 A. Um, at a friend's house. She was -- at a
11 friend's house.
12 Q. What city were you living in at that time?
13 A. Hayward.
14 Q. And was she a neighbor of yours in Hayward?
15 A. At that time she resided in Castro Valley,
16 California, and -- yeah, which is nearby Hayward.
17 Q. Did you know Pamela Vitale?
18 A. Yes, I did.
19 Q. And how well did you know her?
20 A. Um, I'd been to -- been to her house about a half
21 dozen times. I'd spoken with her most often when crossing, when
22 walking down Hunsaker Canyon Road. It was common for her and
23 pull over and talk briefly and -- so I don't -- I mean, I knew --
24 I'm not sure how to quantify what you're asking.
25 Q. Okay. Fair enough.
26 Had Pamela ever been to your home?
27 A. Yes, she had.
28 Q. On how many occasions?
361
1 A. I'm -- I'm not certain because she may have been
2 there when I wasn't there, but I -- I know she was there when we
3 had our house warming party.
4 Q. Was that in -- back in 1998?
5 A. That was in 2003, I believe.
6 Q. So, you were living on the property since the
7 late `90's, but the house didn't get completed until --
8 A. 2003.
9 Q. All right. Did you live on a trailer -- or in a
10 trailer during that time?
11 A. Yes, I did.
12 Q. And let's say since your house warming, since
13 2003, how many times -- at least when you were there, was Pamela
14 at your home?
15 A. I don't -- I don't actually recall her coming to
16 my house. Oh, well, that's not quite correct. There was a road
17 meeting which I believe she was at, you can check the minutes,
18 that was held at my house.
19 Q. And when was that?
20 A. You could check the minutes. I -- I wouldn't
21 venture to guess.
22 Q. Okay. Without guessing, can you give us any kind
23 of an approximation?
24 A. I believe either in 2003 or 2004, but I -- I
25 would check the minutes to find out.
26 Q. Generally speaking, do children attend road
27 meetings or is that pretty much the homeowners that attend those?
28 A. Generally it's a -- homeowners' children do not
362
1 attend unless they live there, whichever home it's being held at.
2 Q. Have you ever seen Pamela talk to Scott?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Have you ever been to the Horowitz or Vitale
5 residence?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. How many times?
8 A. Which residence -- probably half dozen times to
9 each, their trailer and their house, which was also under
10 construction.
11 Q. How many times had you visited the
12 Vitale/Horowitz property since your house warming?
13 A. Probably half dozen times.
14 Q. All right. And what would be the nature of those
15 occasions that you would go?
16 A. Typically just we would be going for a walk
17 and -- typically be going for a walk. Sometimes there's --
18 there's a hike, there's a trail in the Las Trampas Regional Park
19 which leads around. If you go in the loop it comes up behind
20 their residence, and so a couple times that we came that way, but
21 there had been -- I don't know. There had been a few other times
22 walked up just to go for a walk.
23 Q. When you say "we," who are you talking about?
24 A. My -- myself, my wife and -- and occasionally my
25 kids, my two youngest kids.
26 Q. How about Esther? Would she go on these walks
27 with you?
28 A. I don't know. No, no, no.
363
1 Q. How about Scott?
2 A. I don't believe so.
3 Q. Now, October of last year was a very difficult
4 month for you, wasn't it?
5 A. Yes, it was.
6 Q. When did you -- and I want to put aside Jazz, the
7 dog, for a second. Just in terms of the other events that were
8 happening, when did you first become aware of something that
9 might have involved your home or people in your home during the
10 month of last October?
11 MS. LEONIDA: Objection; vague.
12 MR. JEWETT: I'm trying to get a date from him without
13 feeding him information.
14 THE COURT: No, I know.
15 Do you think you understand the nature of the
16 question, Mr. Curiel?
17 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do.
18 THE COURT: All right then. Go ahead.
19 THE WITNESS: October 16th. The evening of October
20 16th.
21 MR. JEWETT:
22 Q. And what day of the week was that?
23 A. That was a Sunday evening.
24 Q. And what took place that raised this level of
25 concern for you?
26 MS. LEONIDA: Objection; assumes facts not in evidence.
27 THE COURT: I think it was on the first question. Go
28 ahead.
364
1 THE WITNESS: On that evening there was a -- a road
2 association meeting.
3 MR. JEWETT:
4 Q. And who was at that meeting?
5 A. Myself, my wife, Esther, Krikorians, whose house
6 it was at, the Partridges, the Paulsons, Tom Bradley may have
7 been -- there may have been others. You can check the minutes.
8 Q. Well, you're kind of forgetting one, aren't you?
9 How about Karen Schneider?
10 A. Sorry. Thought I had -- yeah. Karen and her
11 husband.
12 Q. And what was the purpose of this meeting as far
13 as you were aware?
14 A. I'm sorry. Could you --
15 Q. The purpose of the meeting?
16 A. I'm not clear what the purpose of the meeting
17 was. It was never -- I'm not certain what the purpose of the
18 meeting was.
19 Q. How did you become aware of the existence of a
20 meeting?
21 A. The -- the Krikorians, there's a grandmother, or
22 the mother, Ruby, lives with them, and she was aware that a
23 meeting was being held. And she had called someone at our house
24 to tell us that the -- they were meeting. She -- she was a
25 friend of Esther and myself, and she had been giving me violin
26 lessons.
27 Q. Giving you...?
28 A. Violin lessons.
365
1 Q. Oh. Now, your wife, that's Kim; right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Is she, like -- does she hold some kind of
4 officer's position within the --
5 A. She's the secretary of the Hunsaker Canyon Road
6 Association.
7 Q. And as the secretary, would she normally be
8 advised if somebody wanted to put a meeting together?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. So, was this a little unusual that no
11 notification was given to the secretary?
12 A. To my knowledge, this has never happened before.
13 Q. How did that make you feel?
14 MS. LEONIDA: Objection; relevance.
15 THE COURT: Sustained.
16 MR. JEWETT:
17 Q. You went to the meeting. Can you describe the
18 tenor, the environment of the meeting?
19 A. Well, initially it was cordial, but seemed tense.
20 Q. Initially. Then what happened?
21 A. Someone stated that the -- we were not here to
22 discuss --
23 MS. LEONIDA: Objection; hearsay.
24 THE COURT: It is.
25 MR. JEWETT: I don't know if the person is stating
26 they're not there to discuss something, I honestly don't know if
27 it is or not, your Honor.
28 THE COURT: Let's assume it is. Let's go on to the next
366
1 question.
2 THE WITNESS: Is it -- okay.
3 MR. JEWETT:
4 Q. Okay. At some point did the conversation become
5 even more tense? And I'm talking about particularly between
6 Karen Schneider and Esther Fielding.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And putting aside what was said during the
9 meeting, did Karen Schneider give either Esther or you a computer
10 printout ostensibly showing some kind of a credit card
11 transaction?
12 A. Yes, she did.
13 Q. And was that a credit card transaction involving
14 a delivery of items to Esther at 1050 Hunsaker using Karen
15 Schneider's name with a 1901 Hunsaker Canyon Road address?
16 A. Yes, it was.
17 Q. And when you saw that, did that give you some
18 concerns?
19 A. Um, initially, um, my concern was for Karen's
20 mental state. She seemed close to a nervous breakdown and --
21 initially I wasn't really concerned. I looked at it, and it
22 looked more like -- I mean, it had -- it did not look like -- it
23 appeared as though it was someone trying to cause trouble.
24 The -- there were a couple manifests, and they used an email
25 address which had Esther's name plainly stated. It also had -- I
26 mean, it was to be delivered to our address, and -- I mean,
27 those -- it seemed as though if you were trying to -- if someone
28 from my house were trying to actually purchase something on
367
1 someone else's credit card, it didn't seem like you would do it
2 in that manner. It seemed a bit obvious, and so it --
3 MS. LEONIDA: Objection; narrative.
4 MR. JEWETT:
5 Q. And so initially you were thinking that -- what?
6 A. My initial thought was that this was probably the
7 kids at the end of the street or down the way had -- were
8 probably trying to cause trouble, and intentionally involving
9 multiple -- multiple residents in -- in -- in -- in an
10 embarrassing scheme to try and cause trouble, just mischief.
11 Q. Now, this printout that was given to you by Karen
12 Schneider, did that include -- certain identifying information
13 include something called an I.P. address?
14 A. It did.
15 Q. And you know what an I.P. address is, do you not?
16 A. Yes, I do.
17 Q. In fact, if I wanted to, I could probably qualify
18 you as an expert witness in the area of the operation of
19 computers, couldn't I?
20 A. You probably could.
21 Q. You are a computer consultant?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You write programs --
24 MS. LEONIDA: Objection; leading.
25 MR. JEWETT:
26 Q. What do you do for a living?
27 A. I -- I ensure that applications are -- I work for
28 a health care provider, and I ensure that the applications are
368
1 running. I tend to them, and I analyze -- typically I analyze
2 failures, and I write programs to -- and -- to recognize
3 conditions that lead up to failures, and to understand the
4 failures and so that they can identify them before -- before they
5 actually occur, or as soon as they have occurred, and then
6 address them.
7 Q. By "applications" you're talking about
8 applications in -- basically you're talking about computer
9 programs.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And you're talking about yourself. You write
12 code?
13 A. If needed, yes.
14 Q. So, you had some ideas, based upon your
15 experience, about what this document could be, and you were
16 thinking originally it was --
17 MS. LEONIDA: Objection; leading.
18 MR. JEWETT: I'm just summing up to try to go on from
19 there.
20 THE COURT: I know. Let's go ahead.
21 MR. JEWETT:
22 Q. You originally thought it was some kind of a joke
23 or kids down the street playing some kind of a trick?
24 A. I did, but the thing that concerned me is that
25 the -- the I.S.P. listed on it appeared to be my I.S.P., and that
26 would be something that would -- that was the only thing that
27 seemed like it would be difficult for kids just doing mischief to
28 know or -- or to have faked. So that -- that was a concern, but
369
1 I thought if I had some time, I could figure out what was
2 actually going on.
3 Q. It was pretty obvious to you that Karen Schneider
4 didn't think it was a joke?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. So, what did you do in an effort to determine
7 whether this was a joke or whether this correctly reflected your
8 I.S.P. address?
9 A. I took the report home. I -- I first -- I
10 inspected my firewall and -- to see if it had been compromised in
11 any way. It has logs, so I checked that. I contacted my I.S.P.
12 to briefly review some of their precautions to prevent such
13 things, and I was comfortable that -- I was comfortable that my
14 firewall had not been compromised, and that -- and that there was
15 little possibility of someone actually spoofing my I.S.P.
16 address, pretending -- from another location, pretending to have
17 my -- using my I.P. address.
18 Q. So, what did you do?
19 A. Well, that -- that essentially meant that I
20 believe that this had taken place from my house. So, I -- I then
21 asked for -- to examine all of the computers in the house to
22 review -- review them, check --
23 Q. So, when you say you asked, who did you ask?
24 A. Well, I -- Michael and Hazel, Scott -- Michael,
25 Hazel and Scott, and the other computers are -- belonged to me.
26 Q. And how did Scott react when you asked to look at
27 his computer?
28 A. He -- he brought it down and --
370
1 Q. Brought it down?
2 A. Yeah.
3 Q. And what kind of a computer was it?
4 A. It was an iBook. An Apple iBook.
5 Q. Now, was there a hard drive attached to it? And
6 by "attached to it" I mean external drive attached to it when he
7 brought it down.
8 A. No.
9 Q. It was just the iBook itself?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And so you looked at it, and what did you find
12 out?
13 A. Well, I looked at all the other computers. I
14 looked at that one, and initially I thought it was -- I thought
15 it was clean. But then I realized that the report was using, um,
16 East Coast times, Eastern Standard Time, and being off by three
17 hours it put it on the day prior.
18 So, then I asked to have the computer back so I
19 could re-examine it. And I -- the history had been deleted, but
20 the cache files had not. This is for the browser. Web browser.
21 The orders had been placed via the Web, so I wrote a quick loop
22 to --
23 Q. You wrote a what?
24 A. A little program, a shell script. I typed in a
25 shell script. I did not save it to disk, but I just typed it
26 into the command line to -- to go through all the cache files.
27 They're not -- they're -- the cache files are a binary data.
28 Q. They're what?
371
1 A. Cache files are a binary data.
2 Q. Okay.
3 A. The loop was to extract textual data. I -- so
4 I -- for all of the files, all of the cache files that were on
5 there, I wrote a loop to extract the affected data, filtered it
6 looking for the name of the site that had been -- these items had
7 attempted to have been purchased at. If it found a file that
8 contained that text string, then it would give me the metadata
9 for the file. And specifically I -- the -- what I focused on was
10 the creation date of the files. And what I saw were six files
11 came up, six cache files.
12 Q. What dates did you search?
13 A. I -- I was filtering on the text string, not the
14 date, but I looked at the dates of the six files that it showed
15 up, and the date and time stamps, and they matched the times on
16 the report. The report referenced four orders, but showed me
17 only two manifests. The two manifests that were there matched
18 within a -- matched the time stamps on the files.
19 Q. The -- do you recall the name that you filtered
20 the cache with?
21 A. I believe --
22 Q. You okay?
23 A. Yeah.
24 Q. Do you recall the name?
25 A. I believe it was Specialty Lights dot com.
26 Specialty Lights dot com.
27 Q. And did you make any hard copy printouts of the
28 information that you were able to filter?
372
1 A. No. At that point it seemed to me that the
2 computer was a part of a crime scene, credit card. And I -- I
3 immediately turned it off because it's -- potentially I would be
4 a suspect in the credit card crime, and you don't want to
5 contaminate -- contaminate the crime scene, so I turned it off
6 and -- turned it off and put it in a file cabinet.
7 Q. Did you do anything yourself, based on all the
8 knowledge that you had with respect to the operation of the
9 computer, that had any chance at all of actually further erasing
10 any history or files on that iBook?
11 A. No. No, I did not.
12 Q. You put it up -- where did you put the computer
13 specifically?
14 A. I concealed it in a file cabinet.
15 Q. Okay. And this is all happening --
16 A. When no one -- I concealed it when no one was
17 present so no one would actually know where it was but myself.
18 Q. And was this all happening that Sunday evening or
19 did part of the --
20 A. Yes. This all happened that Sunday evening.
21 Q. And once you learned this, did you form the
22 opinion that these fraudulent charges actually originated from
23 Scott's computer?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And so what did you do?
26 A. I -- I -- initially I questioned -- I questioned
27 everyone and -- everyone except my two youngest kids. I didn't
28 believe -- anyway. And then I -- and I also questioned Scott,
373
1 asked him about it.
2 Q. And what did he say?
3 A. He said he didn't -- I don't recall his exact
4 words, but he didn't know anything about it.
5 Q. Is that that same Sunday evening?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Okay. Did you have any further conversations
8 with Scott that Sunday evening about --
9 A. I -- yes. Actually, I do recall that evening
10 that I asked him -- he maintained he had nothing to do with it,
11 and I asked him if he would mind -- well, I asked him something
12 to the effect about examining his friend's computers, because
13 there was a possibility that one of his friends could have --
14 could have used it or there might be something related. I mean,
15 and that -- at that time he had no objection to me contacting his
16 girlfriend and examining her computer, but he objected to me
17 contacting his -- one of his friends, his close friends.
18 Q. Which one?
19 A. Robin.
20 Q. Was there any particular reason why you were
21 interested in Robin?
22 A. He spent a lot of time with Robin.
23 Q. Did you see anything on the computer that you
24 examined and did a filtering on --
25 A. No. All's I had was essentially the time stamps
26 and that -- that corroborated that it was performed from my house
27 on that computer.
28 Q. Okay. So it was just his close relationship with
374
1 Robin that made you think maybe you should take a look at Robin's
2 computer also?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And he told you Jenna was okay, but he didn't
5 want you to look at Robin's computer?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Is this all Sunday evening?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. By the way, prior to this time were you aware
10 that he may have been using an external hard drive attached to
11 his iBook when he was using the computer?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Did you know that he had a Softstor external hard
14 drive, 125 gig hard drive?
15 A. No.
16 Q. And so -- and clearly at no time did he tell --
17 well, did he at any time tell you that he had a 125 gig hard
18 drive?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Was there any further conversation with Scott
21 that Sunday evening about the computer fraud or checking friends'
22 computers, anything like that?
23 A. No.
24 Q. How about the next day, Monday? Did you work
25 that day?
26 A. Yes, I did.
27 Q. And when you work, where do you go? What city?
28 A. Oakland.
375
1 Q. And did you have any conversation with Scott
2 before you went to work that Monday morning?
3 A. I don't recall any conversation with him that
4 morning.
5 Q. How about after you returned from work?
6 A. With Scott I -- I believe it -- I don't actually
7 recall that I did, though one thing I did mention when we had
8 spoken with on Sunday, he maintained he -- he had been at his
9 girlfriend's house on -- at -- during the time. This is -- these
10 were placed during the evening. And on Monday my wife had told
11 me that his girlfriend's father was corroborating that he was
12 there. He stated that -- he was vouching that Scott had been
13 there during the time that the orders were placed.
14 Q. Okay. By the way, the I.P. address, does that --
15 you have a router at your home?
16 A. Yes, I did.
17 Q. Does the router itself spit out any kind of an
18 identifying number or is the I.P. address something that's unique
19 to the particular computer that's being used?
20 A. The I.P. address -- the external I.P. address,
21 the one that the Web site would record, is specific to the
22 router. There's something called Network Address Translation or
23 NAT. All the computers on the inside have individual I.P.
24 addresses, but to the outside world it would appear as though
25 they're using all the same I.P. address, which is the one that is
26 on the external I.P. address.
27 Q. Even if here, for instance, we were to take the
28 laptop and hook it up to somebody else's cable?
376
1 A. It would not -- if he took it to someone else's
2 house, they would also have an I.P. address. And if they have a
3 router, probably an external I.P. address, that I.P. address
4 would be different from mine.
5 Q. Right. So you have the same I.P. address no
6 matter what computer is being used at your house so long as it's
7 going through that same router?
8 A. It would -- on the outside it would appear as if
9 it's the same I.P. address regardless of which computer's used on
10 the inside.
11 Q. So, getting back to Monday, you get home from
12 work. Do you remember any conversations with Scott on Monday
13 about whether he had anything to do with this computer fraud?
14 A. I don't -- I don't actually recall. It's
15 possible. I might have said something, but at that point he was
16 still maintaining that he had no involvement.
17 Q. Okay.
18 A. And it may have been -- it's possible my wife
19 spoke with him. I don't -- I don't recall.
20 Q. At some point did he admit to you that he did
21 have something to do with the fraud?
22 A. On the Tuesday after I had gone to Robin's house,
23 and -- yes, but at that point it was -- we had discovered some --
24 uncovered some information which indicated that the -- pretty
25 clearly indicated that he -- he was involved in the computer
26 crime.
27 Q. What information?
28 A. Their communications and browser history. Do you
377
1 want me to --
2 Q. Let's break it down.
3 A. Okay.
4 Q. By "their communications," are you talking about
5 communications between Scott and Robin?
6 A. Um, there were communications between Scott,
7 Robin and I believe Oscar.
8 Q. Oscar Timms?
9 A. I don't know his last name.
10 Q. And what was the nature of those communications?
11 A. I saw an email which out -- outlined -- I believe
12 it was an email. It outlined a plan to purchase four --
13 apparently four lights, grow lamps.
14 Q. And this was an email that was on Scott's
15 computer?
16 A. No. This was on Robin's computer.
17 Q. Okay. This was when you were over at the Croen's
18 looking at their computer?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Was there any other evidence -- I thought you
21 said that you had developed some evidence kind of confirming it
22 before you went to the Croen residence?
23 A. The -- what -- okay. The -- okay. The -- what I
24 had found on his computer pretty clearly indicated it was his
25 computer that was used.
26 Q. Scott's computer?
27 A. Scott's computer. And it was done from within my
28 house.
378
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. I had called on Tuesday morning. I had -- okay.
3 On Tuesday morning I had found -- I had been told that some
4 buckets that were found in his room did not belong to --
5 MS. LEONIDA: Objection; hearsay.
6 THE COURT: Sustained.
7 MR. JEWETT:
8 Q. You followed up on some information that you
9 received? You found out some information regarding something
10 that was in Scott's room, and then you did something with that
11 information?
12 A. Well, it -- it -- I believe that he had lied.
13 MS. LEONIDA: Objection; speculation.
14 THE COURT: Right.
15 MR. JEWETT:
16 Q. Okay. With respect -- did you do anything else
17 with respect to an examination, for instance, of the computers
18 that falls in the category of additional evidence that you found?
19 A. No, I did not.
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. I did not. Remember, I wasn't touching the
22 computer.
23 Q. Okay. So, can we assume from that that at no
24 time between when you put it in that filing cabinet after that
25 Sunday evening and when it was seized by the police did you ever
26 turn that computer back on; is that true?
27 A. I did not.
28 Q. Did somebody, to your knowledge?
379
1 A. Not to my knowledge.
2 Q. Okay. So you said that Scott did make admissions
3 to you after you --
4 A. Not specifically to me. My understanding is that
5 while --
6 Q. My -- well, we have to limit ourselves here to
7 the statements made by Scott directly to you.
8 A. Okay. Not to me. Not to me.
9 Q. Did you hear Scott make any statements admitting
10 any participation in the credit card fraud at any time before his
11 arrest?
12 A. No, I did not. I'm sorry. Could you say that
13 again?
14 Q. Sure. Did you hear Scott make any admissions
15 about the credit card fraud at any time before his arrest?
16 A. Um, I don't know if it's an admission, but I
17 questioned him again on Tuesday. On Tuesday I did not go in to
18 work. I work in the morning. I spent some time online, but I
19 stayed at home that day. He came back, and I wanted to question
20 him again. When he came in, he made a statement. He said
21 something to the effect -- okay. He said, "This is what I have
22 to say. You're not going to believe anything I say, so why don't
23 you just tell them I did it."
24 Now, I don't know if that's actually an admission
25 that he did it or not. It would depend on how you interpret that
26 because he wasn't saying he did it. He was saying why don't you
27 just tell them I did it.
28 Q. Tell who?
380
1 A. The Schneiders. I assumed "them" to mean the
2 Schneiders.
3 Q. Okay. Now, this is Tuesday that he makes this
4 statement?
5 A. This is Tuesday, late morning.
6 Q. Tell us everything --
7 A. Perhaps early afternoon.
8 Q. Tell us everything that you can remember that
9 came out of his mouth on that Tuesday.
10 A. On that Tuesday. Well, after he had made that
11 statement, I explained to him that that's not what he wanted if
12 he didn't do it. What we wanted was the truth. And there was
13 also at this point, the prior night, I became aware that the
14 address that was on the manifest was not that of Karen Schneider.
15 It was that of Pamela Vitale.
16 Q. When you say the prior night, are you saying
17 Monday night?
18 A. Monday night.
19 Q. You didn't realize that on Sunday night?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. Now, it was pretty much in the -- in the
22 forefront of everybody's mind on Hunsaker Canyon Road that Pamela
23 Vitale had been killed the day before; right?
24 A. That's right.
25 Q. But it didn't occur to you or you didn't -- you
26 didn't see that 1901 and understand the significance of it?
27 A. I saw the 1901. I don't -- at that time I didn't
28 realize that was Pamela's address. I don't know most of my
381
1 neighbors' actual addresses.
2 Q. Fair enough. But you did realize it on Monday
3 night?
4 A. Late Monday night that came to my attention, and
5 that was -- that was a concern.
6 Q. And so what did you do about that concern?
7 A. Well, that -- the next morning -- the next
8 morning after -- after chipping, there was -- we had -- we had
9 scheduled some chippers to come, so I assisted -- I assisted with
10 that. But afterwards I had wanted to speak with Scott again, and
11 that's -- so I spoke with Scott again when he came home.
12 Q. From chipping?
13 A. No. He came home from school.
14 Q. Okay. Go ahead.
15 A. And as I said, he came in and made a statement
16 saying that he'd just tell him he did it. I explained to him
17 that's not what we want.
18 Q. Right.
19 A. I said to him, um, I asked a rhetorical question
20 and explained that this address was that of the Vitale, you know,
21 residence, and that -- I asked him, "Can you see how this could
22 be misrepresented or misconstrued to be related to the murder?"
23 And he said, "Yes, yes, yes." And -- and a -- he seemed at that
24 point to get -- it seemed to dawn on him now that this was not
25 just a computer -- I mean, it might get mixed in with the murder,
26 and there seemed to be genuine concern at this point, and he
27 seemed a little upset.
28 And I -- at some point I told him, "Relax, you
382
1 don't have anything to worry about." And he said, "Why?"
2 Q. Why doesn't he have anything to worry about?
3 A. Yes. He said, "Why?" And I said, "Because if
4 there was a struggle, as Dan described, then it was virtually
5 guaranteed that there will be DNA under her fingernails. There
6 will probably be footprints and there may be hair."
7 Q. How did he respond to that?
8 A. Um, he didn't say anything. At that point -- my
9 wife was present, and at that point she asked him, it's -- she --
10 she said, "It's vitally important that you recall everything you
11 did that Saturday morning." And she asked him whether there was
12 anyone who saw you or could corroborate that you were on a walk,
13 any cars go by. And at that point he -- he -- he said, "Yes."
14 He said there was a red car that went by and a white car. And he
15 said something -- he said he was walking, um, and, um, the white
16 car -- there was a woman driving a white car, and she had said
17 something strange to him. And he -- initially he couldn't
18 remember what it was. He wasn't clear what she had said. And he
19 said it was something like, "You got to believe." He said she
20 reached over, grabbed his arm and said, "You got to believe," or
21 something strange like that.
22 And I asked him -- I asked him what's -- we asked
23 him what direction they were driving. This was up towards the
24 Vitale house, towards -- this is into Hunsaker Canyon Road. And
25 he -- he had described the woman as having brown hair and round
26 glasses, and -- which is -- which fit a description of Pam.
27 And my wife kind of looked at me, you know,
28 recognizing the description, and -- and I -- without her saying
383
1 anything I said, "No. There's no way that --" I said, "Pam was
2 found in her underwear and a T-shirt. There's no way she was out
3 driving that morning."
4 Q. You told Scott that?
5 A. I said this to Kim.
6 Q. Was Scott present when you said that?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Go ahead.
9 A. I then asked Scott what side of the road he was
10 on, and he said on the side that our house was on. And I said,
11 "Now, wait a minute. You're saying a woman reached across the
12 passenger seat, out the window and grabbed you on the arm." And
13 I believe he said, "I know it sounds strange, but that's what
14 happened."
15 Q. Okay. What happened -- what was said then?
16 A. I stopped questioning then, and I think my wife
17 may have asked him some questions or -- I don't recall. I mean,
18 it wasn't much that was said, but -- so -- he said, "What if my
19 DNA is found?"
20 Q. And --
21 A. Um, I didn't respond immediately, initially. And
22 he asked again, "What if my DNA is there?" And I said, "If you
23 weren't there, then your DNA won't be there." He said, "But what
24 if it is?" And I said, "Well, then that would mean you were
25 there, and that would mean you're going to do time," but I
26 didn't -- it -- it was sort of a flippant answer to a theoretical
27 question that didn't seem to be possible.
28 Q. In your assessment?
384
1 A. In -- yes.
2 Q. Was there anything further said during that
3 conversation about DNA or what would happen if they found my DNA?
4 A. I asked him, "Why would your DNA be there?" And
5 he said, "I don't know. It just seems to be -- seems to be the
6 way things are going."
7 Q. Anything else?
8 A. No.
9 Q. And that was Tuesday morning?
10 A. It -- it was either late Tuesday morning or early
11 afternoon. I'm not sure exactly. I believe it was around noon
12 that he returned, perhaps -- I believe it was around noon that he
13 returned.
14 Q. I'm sorry. Around --
15 A. Around noon that he returned.
16 Q. Now, you said you were chipping that morning?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Was this area that this yard work was being done
19 up towards the -- basically west of your house?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Towards the van or --
22 A. Yes. It would be near the van. There's a fire
23 trail behind my house.
24 Q. So, you were up near the van.
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. Chipping?
27 A. Yes. I was paying -- I was paying a company to
28 do the chipping, but I was assisting -- assisting them, and my
385
1 wife was there and -- and my wife was there.
2 Q. Esther was there, too, wasn't she? Do you
3 remember Esther being there?
4 A. Yes, she was.
5 Q. How about Joe Lynch? Was he there?
6 A. No, he wasn't.
7 Q. Okay. Do you remember at any time Esther going
8 into or holding a black gym bag that was removed from the van?
9 A. Actually, I'm sorry. I don't believe Esther was
10 there that -- on the Tuesday.
11 Q. On that Tuesday. Okay.
12 A. I think you're thinking about the day prior when
13 Joe and --
14 MS. LEONIDA: Objection; foundation.
15 MR. JEWETT: Well, no -- okay. Thank you.
16 Q. Was there a day prior, on Monday, when Esther and
17 Joe and anybody else were doing anything up near the van?
18 A. My understanding that they were. I wasn't there.
19 Q. Oh, you were not there.
20 A. That's correct.
21 MS. LEONIDA: I move to strike the answer.
22 THE COURT: Stricken.
23 MR. JEWETT:
24 Q. Did you at any time on that Tuesday or at any
25 other time have any conversations with Scott about clothing?
26 A. Yes. I'm sorry. That was on that Tuesday, we
27 did ask about -- the subject of clothing came up.
28 Q. And tell us about that, please.
386
1 A. He had -- while we were reconstructing Saturday
2 morning, he had said he'd come home and he had already taken a
3 shower. And he volunteered that he -- he still had the clothes
4 in the -- I mean, the clothes had not been washed and that we
5 could have them if we wanted.
6 Q. Okay. And did he turn over any clothes?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Did you see clothes?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Were you present or -- well, were you present,
11 did you see at any time Scott turn over a red backpack that
12 included clothing in it to Jenna?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Were you at any time aware of that having been
15 done?
16 A. No.
17 MS. LEONIDA: Objection; foundation.
18 THE COURT: Sustained.
19 MR. JEWETT: That's all I have, your Honor.
20 Thank you, Mr. Curiel.
21 THE COURT: Can we cross now?
22 MS. LEONIDA: We can. We probably won't finish, but I
23 can start.
24 THE COURT: Then if we won't finish, then we're going to
25 break.
26 All right. Mr. Curiel, I'm sorry, but we're
27 going to ask you to come tomorrow morning at 9:00 o'clock. It's
28 been a long day for us, so we'll recess until tomorrow morning at
387
1 9:00. Thank you.
2 MS. LEONIDA: Actually, um, maybe we should try. I
3 could maybe finish by 5:00.
4 THE COURT: Yeah. You know what? We actually can't go
5 that late. I appreciate that, I really do, but for other reasons
6 we can't go that late. Thank you.
7 I apologize again, Mr. Curiel
4 THE COURT: Morning.
5 MS. LEONIDA: Morning.
6 THE COURT: Record will reflect that all parties are
7 present, and Mr. Curiel is on the witness stand.
8 Ms. Leonida, when you're ready.
9 MS. LEONIDA: Thank you.
10 CROSS-EXAMINATION
11 BY MS. LEONIDA:
12 Q. Good morning.
13 A. Good morning.
14 Q. Mr. Curiel, were you home the morning of
15 Saturday, October 15th?
16 A. Yes, I was.
17 Q. At some point that morning did you see Scott come
18 home?
19 A. No, I didn't.
20 Q. Did you see Scott at all the morning of October
21 15th?
22 A. Yes, I did.
23 Q. What time did you first see him?
24 A. 9:26.
25 Q. A.m.?
26 A. A.m.
27 Q. How can you be sure it was 9:26 exactly?
28 A. I checked my pager just before coming out into
390
1 the living room.
2 Q. Why would you do that?
3 A. Because I was concerned about the time.
4 Q. Why were you concerned about the time?
5 A. I had things that I wanted to get to do. I knew
6 my wife had a list of things she wanted to do that day, and I was
7 concerned that some of my priorities would not -- might not
8 happen because if we didn't -- if we didn't get -- get started.
9 Q. When you looked at your pager, was it just to see
10 what time it was? Did it have anything to do with Scott?
11 A. No. It was just to check the time.
12 Q. Where was Scott when you saw him at 9:26?
13 A. He was on the couch -- on a couch in our living
14 room next to my wife.
15 Q. Did they appear to be having a conversation?
16 A. No. No.
17 Q. What was your wife doing?
18 A. She was correcting papers.
19 Q. How long did you see him there?
20 A. Just briefly. I didn't actually focus on him.
21 Just briefly.
22 Q. I want to move back to ask some more general
23 questions about when Scott was living at your house with his
24 mother. Did they pay rent of any kind?
25 A. Not that I know of.
26 Q. Did Scott have his own room?
27 A. Yes, he did.
28 Q. Did he store stuff anyplace on your property
391
1 other than in his room that you're aware of?
2 A. He had some personal items in a storage unit.
3 Q. Where is that storage unit located?
4 A. It's about 50 feet from the house. It's on the
5 pad, same pad as the house.
6 Q. Is it locked?
7 A. No, it's not.
8 Q. In fact, is your house normally locked?
9 A. Prior to October 19th, I don't believe the locks
10 had ever been locked except to test them when we got the house,
11 when we completed the house.
12 Q. So, the storage unit where Scott had some of his
13 items, would it be fair to say anybody could walk in and access
14 those?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Among the items that he kept in that storage unit
17 were some sporting equipment?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And also some clothing?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. The way that your house ran at 1050 Hunsaker
22 Canyon Road back in October, did you share things among each
23 other?
24 A. What type of things?
25 Q. Let me be more specific. For example, bags. If
26 somebody needed to borrow a bag to go on a trip, would that be
27 something that they could get from anybody in the house?
28 A. Sure. Yes. It was -- yeah. It was generally I
392
1 guess you would say that, yeah. Things were definitely shared.
2 If --
3 Q. Are you --
4 A. I'm sorry. Go ahead.
5 Q. Finish, please.
6 A. If someone needed something and, you know, and
7 needed a bike or whatever, and, you know, they would -- and
8 somebody else had it, yeah, it would definitely, you know, be
9 shared.
10 Q. The same would be true of a duffel bag?
11 A. Potentially, yes.
12 Q. Now, when the police came to your house to serve
13 a warrant, do you remember that night?
14 A. I do.
15 Q. Was it pretty traumatic for you?
16 A. (No response).
17 Q. Was it traumatic for you that night, Mr. Curiel?
18 A. Yes, it was.
19 Q. Why is that?
20 MR. JEWETT: Well, I'm going to make the same objection
21 defense counsel made previously and say irrelevant.
22 THE COURT: Sustained.
23 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
24 MS. LEONIDA:
25 Q. After the police served the warrant and, as you
26 testified, you were traumatized by their conduct, did you go
27 anywhere?
28 A. Yes. Well, the warrant was not served until the
393
1 following day, so is that -- do you mean --
2 Q. Okay. Let me rephrase the question. Did you go
3 to the police station the night that the police came to your
4 house?
5 A. Yes, I did.
6 Q. Did you go there voluntarily?
7 A. Yes, I did.
8 Q. You knew that you were free not to go?
9 A. It hadn't crossed my mind, but I did go there
10 voluntarily, yes.
11 Q. And it didn't cross your mind because you were
12 trying to be cooperative?
13 A. Yes. Yes.
14 Q. Would it be fair to say that at the time that you
15 were talking to the police, the first time that you talked to the
16 police, that you wanted to find out the truth yourself?
17 A. Yes, it would.
18 Q. Were you lying to protect anybody when you talked
19 to them?
20 A. No, I wasn't.
21 Q. Did you answer their questions honestly?
22 A. Yes, I did, all but one, which I refuse to --
23 well, I answered -- I refused to answer.
24 Q. What was that question?
25 A. They wanted to know -- they wanted to know who we
26 spent the night with on the October 15th. I refused to tell them
27 because I didn't want them repeating what they had done at our
28 house. They have children.
394
1 Q. Other than refusing to tell them the names of the
2 friends whose house you went to on the 15th out of fear for their
3 safety or treatment at the hands of the police, did you refuse to
4 answer any other questions?
5 A. No.
6 Q. And the questions that you did answer, you
7 answered honestly?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. At the time that you talked to the police, did
10 you know -- did you know what time it was alleged or speculated
11 that Ms. Vitale had been murdered?
12 MR. JEWETT: Objection; calls for speculation and calls
13 for hearsay and irrelevant as to this witness.
14 THE COURT: Sustained.
15 MS. LEONIDA: I can make an offer of proof. I believe
16 it does go to this witness' credibility. The time that he told
17 the police is highly relevant because at the time he said that he
18 saw Scott at home at 9:26, he had no idea what that meant in
19 terms of the investigation. I think it's highly relevant.
20 THE COURT: Just rephrase the question. The question as
21 posed was cause for speculation, but if you can rephrase it --
22 MS. LEONIDA: Okay.
23 THE COURT: -- I do think it's relevant.
24 MS. LEONIDA:
25 Q. At the time that you were talking to the police
26 after they came to your house, did you know what time Ms. Vitale
27 had been murdered?
28 A. Um --
395
1 MR. JEWETT: Objection; calls for speculation unless
2 this witness is testifying from his personal knowledge, which
3 seems unlikely.
4 THE COURT: Well, the question is, did he know she was
5 murdered. It's really a yes or no.
6 MR. JEWETT: "What time" was the question. Did he know
7 what time she was murdered.
8 MS. LEONIDA: Whether this witness had an opinion in his
9 mind as to what time is highly relevant because my offer of proof
10 is that he didn't, so the time that he gave -- the times that he
11 gave for what he saw that morning are more credible since he had
12 no idea what they could possibly relate to.
13 THE COURT: Did he say in a statement to the police a
14 time?
15 MS. LEONIDA: No.
16 THE COURT: I'll go ahead and allow it. Why don't you
17 ask it again, though.
18 MS. LEONIDA:
19 Q. Mr. Curiel, when you were --
20 A. I don't believe that's accurate.
21 THE COURT: And if it's not, then let us know, okay?
22 Let her rephrase the question, and then if you can answer that,
23 let us know. And then if you disagree with any facts that she
24 may put in the evidence or in the question, let us know.
25 MS. LEONIDA:
26 Q. Mr. Curiel, when you were talking to the police,
27 did you know what time Ms. Vitale had been murdered?
28 A. Definitively? No. I still don't, but --
396
1 MR. JEWETT: Objection; asked and answered, narrative.
2 It sounds like the question -- here's the concern, your Honor.
3 This witness may well have what might generally be characterized
4 as knowledge based upon the statements or speculations of other
5 people. And if -- it sounds to the People that that's what
6 counsel is trying to elicit from this witness, what time did he
7 hear that Ms. Vitale might have been killed. And it's our
8 position that that's hearsay.
9 THE COURT: I understand.
10 MS. LEONIDA: I can cut this short. The only question I
11 was asking the witness was whether he knew at the time. He just
12 said no. I'm moving on.
13 THE COURT: Okay.
14 MS. LEONIDA:
15 Q. Moving back to October 15th, that Saturday
16 morning --
17 A. Yeah.
18 Q. -- when you saw Scott, did he appear to you to be
19 upset?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Did he appear as if he was sweating?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Were his clothes wet?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Did you notice that his hair was wet?
26 A. No, I didn't notice.
27 Q. Did you see any blood on his clothing?
28 A. No, I did not.
397
1 Q. Moving on to the Tuesday following the road
2 meeting when you confronted Scott about the credit card fraud --
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. -- when you were talking to him, would it be fair
5 to say that you wanted him to admit that he committed the credit
6 card fraud that you thought in your mind he had committed?
7 A. No, not unless it was true. What I wanted him
8 was to explain -- I wanted -- I wanted him to tell me the truth.
9 Q. Before you --
10 A. I -- I didn't feel -- I felt he was concealing
11 something.
12 Q. So, you wanted him to stop concealing.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You had already looked at his computer.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And you were pretty sure in your mind that he was
17 responsible for the credit card fraud.
18 A. No. It seemed the most probable, but -- and --
19 and I suspected, but I wasn't -- at that point I wasn't, you
20 know, willing to convict him of credit card fraud.
21 Q. So you thought he probably had done it.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You were talking to him with your wife?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Was there anybody else in the room?
26 A. Yes, Scott and Esther.
27 Q. Was there anybody else in the house that you're
28 aware of?
398
1 A. Possibly. It -- yeah. Hazel and possibly --
2 possibly Dagen and Celia, the children. Hazel's children. But
3 we were -- we were in the master bedroom, which is separate.
4 It's pretty much separate from -- separate from the rest of the
5 house.
6 Q. Okay. Was Jenna there?
7 A. I never saw her, but she might have been there
8 because she might have driven him there.
9 Q. Did Scott drive?
10 A. No, not to my knowledge.
11 Q. Did he have a car that you're aware of?
12 A. No. No.
13 Q. And you'd never seen him drive?
14 A. I have never seen him drive.
15 Q. Never heard him talk about driving?
16 A. Well, that's not true. Once he drove up -- drove
17 the van up the hill, up the driveway.
18 Q. Was he supervised when he did that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. As far as you know, does he have a driver's
21 license?
22 A. No.
23 Q. When you were talking to him, when you and Kim
24 were talking to him that Tuesday, you expressed to him that part
25 of your concern was that if he was responsible for the credit
26 card fraud and didn't admit what he did, that he could be linked
27 to this murder; is that true?
28 A. It could be linked to the murder investigation,
399
1 yes.
2 Q. And along those lines, Kim specifically started
3 asking him, "Did you see anybody on your walk?"
4 A. Yes, did -- it's more like did anyone see him,
5 but yes.
6 Q. And she also specifically said, for example, "Did
7 any cars go by?" Is that true?
8 A. Yes, she specifically asked that.
9 Q. And he told you that he saw a red car before a
10 white one?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. When he told you that a woman had seen him in
13 response to this question about had anybody seen you, did he say
14 that that woman was Pamela Vitale?
15 A. No, he did not.
16 Q. Did you attempt to show him any photographs of
17 Pamela Vitale?
18 A. Yes. At some point there had been something on
19 the Web that had an image of Pamela, and I don't recall if that
20 was actually -- we were actually able to locate that at the time,
21 though.
22 Q. Do you remember whether you were ever able to
23 show Scott a picture of Pamela Vitale to see if that was who he
24 was talking about?
25 A. No, I don't.
26 Q. Would you agree that when you were talking to
27 Scott saying that he might be linked to a murder investigation,
28 that that made him appear upset? Nervous?
400
1 A. Could you restate the question?
2 Q. Sure. Did Scott, after you confronted Scott with
3 the possibility that he was going to be linked to a murder
4 investigation, did he appear nervous?
5 A. Yes. Um, or -- yes. I'd say nervous. But I'm
6 not sure I said "he." I believe I said "this," when saying
7 "this" could be linked to the murder investigation.
8 Q. And then you were the one who first brought up
9 DNA; is that right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. As far as you know, does Scott have any
12 scientific background regarding DNA?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Has he ever talked to you about DNA before?
15 A. No.
16 Q. So, you don't know what in his mind DNA is or how
17 it's transferred; would that be fair to say?
18 MR. JEWETT: You don't know what in his mind?
19 Objection; vague.
20 THE COURT: Sustained.
21 MS. LEONIDA: Okay.
22 Q. You don't know what Scott thinks DNA is.
23 A. That's true.
24 Q. You talked about preserving clothing.
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. And you talked about preserving clothing with
27 Scott because you wanted him to save clothing that could show
28 that he was innocent.
401
1 A. That's what I said, yes.
2 Q. And he agreed that he would preserve the
3 clothing.
4 A. I don't know that he actually agreed. He
5 volunteered that we could have the clothes.
6 Q. Did you ever follow-up and ask for them?
7 A. No, I didn't.
8 Q. After that conversation, did things get pretty
9 hectic around your house?
10 A. Yeah, they did.
11 Q. Right around that time, mid October, I believe
12 you said that you had planned for a chipper to come remove some
13 debris from the fire trail?
14 A. I contacted the chip -- chippers a few days,
15 probably a week, probably some time around the, um, 10th of
16 October. They came on the Thursday morning prior. I believe the
17 13th of October, and they chipped the -- they chipped the pile
18 that had been gathered in the lower portion of the property.
19 They could not with their equipment get to the -- the area up
20 above. They needed a four-wheel drive to get to the upper part,
21 and so they scheduled -- we rescheduled that for them to come on
22 Tuesday morning.
23 Q. Did you schedule the clearing of the brush --
24 were you clearing brush for any particular reason?
25 A. Approximately six weeks prior, there had been an
26 Hunsaker Canyon Road Association meeting with the Fire Marshal,
27 and he came and gave a presentation, and he was saying that
28 wasn't going to be like it used to be, where -- kind of had a
402
1 standard routine of whacking weeds. And he gave a presentation,
2 and we spoke about how much -- how we needed to improve -- we,
3 the canyon, needed to do a better job and such.
4 And my wife took this very seriously, and from
5 that point I had to answer to her standards, not the Fire
6 Marshal's. So I spent most of my free time during that six weeks
7 either clearing brush, working, or doing homework with the kids.
8 My free time for the most part was spent on those three things.
9 Q. Did the Fire Marshal give you a deadline?
10 A. Yes, they did. They gave us a deadline of
11 October 10th. I was clearing brush. I put it in -- gathered a
12 lot of it and put it in a pile down the bottom of the hill. I
13 intentionally did not chip it because I wanted -- I wanted them,
14 when they returned, to -- to see how much we had done, and that
15 the pile was probably, before chipped, was probably in the order
16 of a hundred cubic yards that was down below. There's more up
17 top.
18 They did return and had sent us a second notice,
19 and in that notice the only thing they asked us to do was the --
20 what was down at the lower portion. But my -- my wife insisted
21 that we do the upper part of the property also.
22 Q. Was there a deadline on the second notice?
23 A. Yes, there was. It was the -- I believe it was
24 the -- there was a deadline on the second notice.
25 Q. After you saw Scott at 9:26 on Saturday, what did
26 you do? How long were you in the house?
27 A. I was in the -- I was in the living room briefly.
28 I was trying to get people to get the kids excited about going,
403
1 departing, and my wife made it clear that we would not be
2 departing until she had finished reading her papers.
3 Q. How long did that take?
4 A. It -- I think it took about 40 minutes. We left
5 at about 10:20.
6 Q. Did you see Scott leave during that time?
7 A. No, I did not.
8 Q. Did you hear anybody leave the house during that
9 time?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Was Esther home that morning?
12 A. I believe she was. It would have been normal for
13 her to have been there. I don't recall seeing her.
14 MS. LEONIDA: Thank you. I have nothing further.
15 THE COURT: Redirect?
16 MR. JEWETT: A few, yeah.
17 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
18 BY MR. JEWETT:
19 Q. When you saw Scott that morning at 10 -- at 9:26,
20 did he have any scratches on his face that you saw?
21 A. I did not notice any scratches on his face at
22 that time.
23 Q. Okay. You mentioned that there was a van that
24 one time Scott drove up the driveway once.
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. Now, was a Toyota van that used to be abandoned
27 up on the top part of your property; is that true?
28 A. That's correct.
404
1 Q. Is there also a Ford van that somebody has?
2 A. Yes, there is.
3 Q. Which van was it that Scott drove?
4 A. The Ford van.
5 Q. The last question counsel asked you about whether
6 you have any knowledge of Scott's knowledge of DNA, and you said
7 no; right?
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. You are aware that Scott got his G.E.D. and is or
10 was going to D.V.C.; is that true?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Were you also aware that Scott was taking a
13 psychology class in serial killers?
14 MS. LEONIDA: Objection; calls for speculation,
15 inflammatory and untrue.
16 THE COURT: Well, it just asks if he knows he was taking
17 that class. If he doesn't know, he'll tell us no.
18 THE WITNESS: No, I did not know.
19 MR. JEWETT:
20 Q. Okay. Have you seen any books at your home, one
21 of which is a black book with an indication on the binding that
22 says, "Mass Murder"? Have you ever seen that book?
23 A. No, I have not.
24 Q. Have you seen a book in your home, apparently
25 authored by F. Lee Bailey that, at least from the cover -- it's
26 a -- it's a book about eight inches by eight inches, red and
27 black, and the title is something like The Defense of Serial
28 Killers?
405
1 A. No.
2 Q. Or anything like that?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Have you had any conversations with Scott about
5 the subject matter of his psychology class and whether or not
6 they have touched upon serial killers and the psychology of
7 serial killers in his psychology class?
8 A. No, I have -- did not.
9 MR. JEWETT: Okay. Thank you. That's all I have.
10 THE COURT: Any recross?
11 MS. LEONIDA: No.
12 THE COURT: Thank you, Mr. Curiel. You may step down.
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